ACTING ASSISTANT SECRETARY NEWSOM: Good afternoon everyone. People in more than 60 countries, mostly in the developing world, face a daily threat of being killed or maimed by millions of land mines in place today. Anti-personnel land mines and unexploded ordnance claim thousands of casualties each year. Since most land mines are long-lived and very difficult to detect, they will remain a threat to civilian populations for decades unless action is taken now to remove these hidden killers.
Today, I am pleased to announce the release of the third edition of the State Department publication, "Hidden Killers," which I hope you all have, which is an update of the last edition published in 1994. "Hidden Killers" has become an internationally recognized and respected reference source for information on the global land mine crisis and the steps the international community is taking to solve it.
I'd now like to introduce Ambassador Rick Inderfurth, who has already been described to you as the special representative of the President and the Secretary of State for global humanitarian de-mining. He will discuss how the findings of "Hidden Killers" relate to the global effort to end the land mine threat posed to civilians by the year 2010. And then later I will talk about the US national program, and then Jim Schaer will talk about the Defense Department's role.
ASSISTANT SECRETARY INDERFURTH: Good afternoon. Since I think this is your last briefing here before the holiday, we're going to subject you to three statements. I hope that you will not take that out on us; we'll also answer your questions. I've been asked to walk through the publication "Hidden Killers" and what it contains that is new. You do have it, I think -- I see copies there -- so let me just take a minute to walk through this.
"Hidden Killers" 1998 contains some important and long-awaited good news about the global land mine crisis. With the de-mining experience gained in the last four years, we now know that with a sustained international commitment the problem can be solved in a reasonable period of time, indeed, we believe by the year 2010. Whereas the previous editions of "Hidden Killers" in 1993 and 1994 painted a picture of hundreds of millions of mines that could take generations to remove, we now believe that the dimensions of the problem are less than previously estimated and that international intervention does make a big difference.
For this edition of "Hidden Killers," we systematically canvassed our embassies worldwide, international organizations, NGOs and other sources of information. We compared this latest information with what we had in earlier editions of "Hidden Killers," and came to the conclusion that the earlier estimate of from 80 million to 110 million mines in the ground is too high. We now estimate that the total is closer to 60 million to 70 million. That number is still staggering, but clearly more manageable to cope with.
We also conclude that the best measure of the land mine problem is not the number of mines in the ground, but rather the number of innocent victims and the area of productive land rendered unusable by land mines. In short, we should be focusing on victims and economic impact as we pursue our de-mining efforts, not on the aggregate number of mines pulled from the ground.
"Hidden Killers" also contains country profiles. The country profiles in this edition tell the story of how far we have moved forward in the most heavily mine-affected country like Cambodia and Afghanistan, where we have the most mature mine clearance programs. In Cambodia, for example, we have seen how a strong and active mine action center, with the support of the Cambodian Government as well as other donors, is making progress in de-mining. The strength of the Cambodian program is indicated by the significant drop in casualties from 1996 to the present. Casualties decreased from an average of 230 mine incidents per month to current rates of 100 per month; still too high, but again for us we see this as an important step forward.
In Afghanistan, the UN rather than the government manages de-mining operations. The UN and de-mining NGOs have been receptive to different ways of accomplishing the task, such as using dogs. In some cases, depending on the terrain, dogs have been from 140 percent to 900 percent more effective than manual mine clearance operations. The dog program in Afghanistan has been so successful that it serves as a model for other mine-affected countries.
I might add that this dog program has been so successful that it has inspired private US citizens to propose a public-private partnership with the US Government to have something called the Canine Corps to increase the number of dogs available for de-mining worldwide.
Over all, our objective must be to reduce the number of victims to zero and to return the maximum amount of land to productive use. In this regard, some dramatic results have already been achieved. Namibia is a success story, where much of the previous land mined has been returned to productive use. Nine of its ten identified mine fields have been cleared since 1991, and the remaining site is expected to be cleared this year. Importantly, several of the cleared mine fields are on valuable commercial land that has already been developed.
In addition, Namibian casualty rates dropped 9 percent from a high of 64 victims in 1991 to near zero in 1997. The success of the Namibian program has led Namibia's president to offer his country's expertise in training other Africans in de-mining.
Nicaragua is also a success story. Strong government involvement coupled with international cooperation and coordination through the Organization of American States as well as the Inter-American Defense Board has moved Nicaragua in the direction of being mine-free early in the next century. In fact, the OAS Secretary General has announced the goal of a mine-free Central America by the year 2000.
Of course, many countries still struggle with the land mine problem. Some, like Mozambique, faced a lack of central coordination and de-mining programs have not been as effective. Even worse, one of the most heavily mined countries -- Angola -- is experiencing renewed conflict, destroying the gains made by numerous mine-clearing efforts throughout the country.
Many other mine-affected countries also require increased international support, including funding, material and expertise. "Hidden Killers" gives us a clear picture of those states needing extra help to get the job done. Clearly, we still have a tough road ahead of us. However, we have seen an international consensus exists to conduct surveys that will better define the scope of the problem and help us focus our de-mining efforts; to increase assistance to victims, which include some 300,000 survivors worldwide and an estimated 26,000 people killed or maimed each year; and to cooperate on technology development so that we can make the task of global de-mining more effective and efficient and safer -- not an arm and a leg at a time.
All of these efforts will spur us to reach our goal of zero victims and that of mine-free states, to eradicate those land mines that threaten civilians by the end of the next decade. We believe, in this regard, that "Hidden Killers" will make a contribution.
As Secretary Albright states in her preface to "Hidden Killers" -- and I quote -- "In describing casualties reduced and lands restored to productive use, "Hidden Killers" tells a story of success. And in providing lower, more realistic estimates of how many land mines remain to be cleared, it sends a message of hope."
So I think that's a summary of what you will see in "Hidden Killers." We can discuss it in more detail during the Q&A. Let me return it to ACTING ASSISTANT SECRETARY NEWSOM.
ACTING ASSISTANT SECRETARY NEWSOM: Thanks, Rick. I just want to take a couple of minutes to draw your attention to the US national program. It is by far the largest national program in the world. The two principal agencies involved in it are the State Department and the Defense Department. Although there are participation by others, the two of our agencies are the most engaged.
The United States Government's humanitarian de-mining program did not begin last year or the year before; we have been operating since 1993. Its purpose is threefold: to relieve human suffering; to develop an indigenous de-mining capability; and to promote US interests and peace, prosperity and regional stability.
The program seeks to establish sustainable, indigenous, humanitarian de-mining capabilities in mine-infested countries. That will continue after direct US involvement is complete. We know that we cannot remain indefinitely in these countries, and so we do not go in to do the actual de-mining operations ourselves. We realize that in most cases that's going to be a many, many year duration operation. So we go in with the goal of establishing a sustainable capability in the country so that when we leave, the de-mining operations continue.
We carry out our de-mining operations in cooperation with international agencies and host governments of mine-affected nations. Once hostilities have ceased and at the invitation of the host government, the United States supports mine clearance operations and mine awareness programs by providing training, expertise and equipment support through programs administered by the Department of Defense. After an indigenous program is established, the Department of State then provides funding for continued equipment support of de-mining operations. Recent new legislative authority from Congress now allows the Department of State to use innovative ways of disbursing funds in support of de-mining activities. These new measures may involve direct contracting for mine action and operations through non-governmental organizations, through commercial consultants and companies involved in de-mining activities and direct funding of governmental operations. To avoid mismanagement, these new mechanisms were partially implemented in 1998 on a trial basis, and we expect to engage in full implementation in 1999. In some countries where a US direct military training mission is not possible, the US contributes to programs administered by the United Nations, the OAS or USAID.
The United States is a world leader in strong support for humanitarian de-mining action. Since 1993, when we first got into this in a very significant way, we have committed over $236 million to global humanitarian de-mining. This year, 1998, we are going to be expending over $82 million for humanitarian de-mining. That makes up a very large share of the world's annual commitment of resources to humanitarian de-mining, and we are seeking a further increase in this amount for 1999. 23 countries now receive US assistance for some aspect of humanitarian de-mining. In 14 of those countries we are assisting them in taking mines out of the ground now. Several other countries have made preliminary inquiries about participation in our program, and we have a number under consideration for launching of new programs. We expect the number of 23 countries to be higher by several next year.
In 1997 and 1998, 276 US soldiers and 20 civilians trained over 1,600 de-miners in Africa, Latin America and Bosnia on mine awareness, clearance techniques, emergency medical care and establishment of national mine action centers. As Rick mentioned, largely due to the efforts of the US National Program in Africa, Namibia is now virtually mine-free. One quarter of the land mines in Rwanda have been cleared and Africa, Afghanistan and Cambodia have had a two-thirds reduction in their casualty rates from land mines -- again, largely through US efforts.
In sum, the US humanitarian de-mining program is a major contributor to the effort to alleviate global suffering and economic stagnation caused by the plague of anti-personnel land mines. Specific details about the program are identified in a fact sheet which we have, I hope, made available to you.
I'd now like to introduce Jim Schaer from the Department of Defense. He'll speak to you briefly about the Defense Department's role.
DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY SCHAER: Thank you very much, Eric. It's a pleasure to be a caboose on this distinguished train. On behalf of the Department of Defense, I am delighted to join Secretaries Inderfurth and Newsom in announcing the release of "Hidden Killers" 1998. I'd like to actually commend the study to you; I think it's a tremendously valuable resource. It contains a wealth of information about the land mine crisis and what we're trying to do in concert with others to safeguard both the lives and the livelihood of innocent civilians living in mine-afflicted countries throughout the world.
We, in the Department of Defense, view de-mining as one of the foremost humanitarian challenges that the United States faces today and we're very proud -- Secretary Cohen, in particular, is very proud of our contributions in this area.
Since the inception of the program, we've committed over $122 million both to R&D and to de-mining operations. We're active in 19 of the 23 countries that currently host US- sponsored programs and we expect more countries to join the list fairly soon. Let me stress that the land mine problem for us is not an abstraction. Ever since the Vietnam War -- and indeed even going back to the first and second World War as earlier this century -- US soldiers and Marines have seen first-hand the terrible suffering inflicted by anti-personnel land mines, especially those that are long-lived land mines. So the first and foremost ingredient that we need in any successful program, that of motivation, is something that we in DOD have in abundance.
We've also learned from experience that effective mine action addresses not only the removal of land mines but a broad gamut of activities ranging from mine awareness, education to the location marking and clearance of actual mine fields to assistance for victims, both medical and rehabilitative and, of course, a technology R&D program to support the effort as a whole. We tried to reflect in our own DOD programs that balance of effort in each of the various areas.
The centerpiece of our effort is our so-called train-the-trainer program. We dispatch our special forces teams to countries that have requested our support to train indigenous de-mining personnel in all aspects of mine action. Our special forces soldiers train in the detection, identification and clearance of land mines and in first responder care for land mine victims. Our civil affairs and psychological operations personnel train in mine awareness and also provide instruction in many areas of program management that are critical to sustaining these national efforts long term -- everything from administration to logistics to equipment maintenance, communications and data processing. It turns out, in looking at our effort overall, that mine awareness is the biggest factor in reducing casualties. According to some studies over 80 percent of the reduction of casualties in some countries is attributable to mine awareness and education.
We have worked with DC Comics along with the State Department to develop highly successful comic books for kids -- initially in Bosnia, more recently in Central America, and we are looking at a Portuguese language version in the future. DOD performs all these assignments with an important caveat imposed on us by US law, and that is our own personnel interactive mine fields or engage in the physical detection, listing and destruction of mines.
But the train-the-trainer programs do work, and we are also not shy about pointing out the tremendous benefits of these programs for our own special forces. Our own training is a significant factor. We embrace all the humanitarian objectives for the program overall as run by the US Government; but for the Department of Defense, de-mining is an important aspect of our regional combatant commanders peacetime engagement strategy and it's tremendous experience, tremendous training for special forces -- operators in both the language and customs of the local region and how to perform effective training programs. So we're very bullish about the benefits to us. We're not just benefactors, we are also beneficiaries of this program.
Let me say a brief word about our R&D effort. Our R&D community in DOD is working closely with private corporations to field de-mining technology as quickly and safely as possible. Through the application of existing technology, as well as further innovations in technology, we're attempting to put out into the field systems through rapid prototyping. Last year we further developed 26 de-mining innovations and adapted commercial off-the-shelf equipment and mature technologies to the demonstration of equipment for clearance and detection of mines for the protection to the clearance and detection of mines as well as for the protection of de-miners and mine awareness. This year we are further looking at another 25 concepts.
Our program encompasses developments in body armor, which actually make a difference for de-miners; clearance of vegetation, which is an important element in the process; the mechanical as opposed to the personal clearance of land mines; and also, detection -- both pinpoint detection as used by an individual de-miner and, in addition, wide area detection done by an airborne vehicle. We continue to share the results of our R&D efforts with the international community. We've published an updated version of a highly successful 1997 de-mining equipment catalogue. We're active in hosting and participating in various international conferences on de-mining R&D, and have a promising new venture with the European community in this regard.
In sum, we view our program as a success in progress. It's certainly not impervious to improvement, refinement and further development; and clearly, we have a long way ahead. But we're proud of our program and take every opportunity to trumpet its successes.
On that note, Eric, I will conclude; and I think we're ready for questions.
QUESTION: You mentioned the successes, but there are a lot of conflicts around the world. Are there countries where the situation has deteriorated over the past two years, and could you name them?
ASSISTANT SECRETARY INDERFURTH: I can point out at least one country where we were making progress in moving forward in getting the program established where the situation has deteriorated to the point where we're now having to try to work through third parties; and that's in Angola. The internal situation there has reached the point where we cannot send our own personnel in there and so we are attempting to work through UN agencies to keep a contribution going to the problem because it's extremely severe.
QUESTION: Do you know where they get their mines from?
ASSISTANT SECRETARY INDERFURTH: I don't. Do you know, Jim? I suspect that the bulk of the mines in that country go back to the days of the intensive conflict and probably what they've got there now is the hold over, the residue from the mines that would have been pouring into that country back in the late '80s.
ACTING ASSISTANT SECRETARY NEWSOM: I'll add one thing to that. When we did "Hidden Killers" four years ago, the estimate was about two and a half million new land mines were being laid every year -- this was during Bosnia and what was happening in the former Yugoslavia and other conflicts around the world. We believe that number is considerably less today. Angola clearly is an instance where the country is going in the wrong direction with respect to land mines; we hope that that will not get worse. But in a number of countries, conflicts have concluded or, for instance in Afghanistan with the recent success of the Taliban and the fact that the Northern Alliance is no longer contesting the remaining quarter of the land, there are fewer land mines being laid. So you do have this ebb and flow of conflicts. But right now the number of land mines coming out of the ground, we believe, is far higher than the number of land mines going into the ground.
DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY SCHAER: If you want to pursue that in more detail through Colonel Cunningham -- right back there -- will be able to give you more specifics.
QUESTION: (Inaudible) -- the large over-estimation of the number of mines for you four years ago?
ACTING ASSISTANT SECRETARY NEWSOM: I would say basically lack of data and people were making best guesses based on very little hands-on knowledge and experience. Four years ago there weren't very many large scale de-mining operations and activities going on in the world. The United States was, at that time -- even by today's standards -- a modest program, overwhelmingly the largest one even then. There just simply was not very much information available.
One thing that's worth looking at in this book is the discussion of the methodology there -- I think it's in chapter three -- which shows that we have tried to make this a more reliable estimate by drawing heavily on the experiences of national programs, including our own, international agencies -- especially the United Nations -- and the involvement of NGOs which are often out in regions where we sometimes are not able to reach.
So we've made what still has to be seen as a best estimate; and we are talking about a range -- 60 million to 70 million. There are those who believe that even that estimate is still too high -- that the deflation factor used in there was not deep enough. So I think the important point to draw from this is based on the intensive analysis of the available data and particularly focusing on these 12 case study countries which are detailed in this book.
We're able to give, we think, a more accurate picture of the general scope of the problem. The importance of that is it helps to deal with the perceptions which were rampant three years ago that this problem was simply overwhelming -- it was going to take a century to deal with it. As Rick was pointing out, the pace of laying of new land mines was far outstripping the pace of removing land mines. I think it's very important, the outcome of this, the finding of this is very important for persuading people, countries, organizations, NGOs that it's worth putting money and effort into this because it is actually, we believe, a solvable problem in a reasonably short number of years.
QUESTION: I have some questions about the dog program. Who is it who actually trains the dogs; and how many countries are currently using them?
ACTING ASSISTANT SECRETARY NEWSOM: I'd have to defer you to others on precise details on the dog program. I think as Rick mentioned, it has been embraced by the private community and NGOs are working hard in this effort.
On the R&D side, we're trying to replicate the dog's nose to sniff out all the things that a dog senses. In that way, we're not only doing the initial minefield detection, but even more to the point, the proofing of cleared minefields. After all, in the humanitarian business -- this is not a military operation. We're not just clearing a narrow lane for our forces to pass through; we have to promote programs that can clear up to a very high standard so kids can go back to school or play on playgrounds. So the proofing issue is actually important.
So without being able to give you the details, I would just underline the emphasis of the dog program.
QUESTION: When some of us were with you all in Pakistan and we went to the Afghan refugee camp, you at that point said that you all were going to try and work on a comic book for these children and that could be used in Pakistan and Afghanistan. Have you been successful?
ASSISTANT SECRETARY INDERFURTH: Yes, we have. Jim made reference to the second edition of the comic book which draws on the creative talents of Warner Brothers and DC Comics that has been issued for Central America -- the Spanish language version. He made reference to a Portuguese version which will be done, the next one in line, which will be done for Angola and Mozambique. Then we hope to see that continued for other mine-affected countries. So that program is moving forward.
I think that whether it be the Canine Corps or whether it be the mine awareness comic books for children, in addition to the governmental efforts that we have described in terms of the US Government and others, there is a reservoir of expertise and assistance out there in the private sector that is coming to the forefront in so many of these areas. We have seen, clearly with Princess Diana and her involvement, Queen Noor of Jordan has now really picked up the mantle from her to carry it forward in terms of very highly public land mine campaign effort, efforts to increase funding from the private sector. To go on, Ted Turner's $100 million contribution to the UN, a portion of that is now already dedicated for land mine removal and assistance. The MacArthur Foundation, Carnegie, Rockerfeller have all put in money for assistance.
So in addition to the almost $100 million that the US Government is contributing, and at least twice that amount, I think that we have an estimate of about $300 million in 1998 worldwide from governments. That is being pursued also and added to by the private sectors and assistance from around the world. So the momentum for dealing with the humanitarian consequences of land mines is there and, we believe, increasing.
ACTING ASSISTANT SECRETARY NEWSOM: We're kicking ourselves for not having that comic book here Someone has gone to get some samples so we can show you.
QUESTION: I'd like to ask a couple of questions about what you might call the supply side. Is there any way that you've been able to discern any impact on the supply or the marketing or the manufacture of these devices from the Ottawa Treaty or otherwise? And what happens to the mines from de-mined zones; are they detonated or are they stockpiled somewhere where somebody might get access to them?
DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY SCHAER: Our policy is that the mines that are removed are destroyed; they are not retained.
QUESTION: And what about the manufacture and sale?
ACTING ASSISTANT SECRETARY NEWSOM: Well, the Ottawa Treaty is not in force yet. It requires 40 states to ratify before it goes into force, and the last number I heard was 31 have ratified.
At present, there is no international agreement in force which would regulate or ban transfers of land mines. We can only assume that a trade in anti-personnel land mines continues. There are three possibilities for doing something about the trade in land mines. One would be the entry into force of the Ottawa Convention, and at least the states party to that agree not to transfer any land mines. A third is the Land Mine Protocol to the Convention on Chemical Weapons, which has entered into force. It requires 21 states to ratify; 21 have ratified. The United States has not yet ratified. It would ban transfers of land mines which are prohibited by it, which is not all land mines, but certain types. So at least there would be that prohibition.
And then in the Conference on Disarmament in Geneva, the United States is pressing for the negotiation of a global convention banning all international trade in all anti-personnel land mines. We are hoping to negotiate that agreement in the near future.
But in the meantime, we have a moratorium in place. Actually, we have a law in place, enacted several years ago, which prohibits us from transferring land mines. So since I believe 1994 -- I think it was 1994 -- or 1993, this was an amendment by Senator Patrick Leahy, we have been prohibited from transferring land mines. And as an act of policy, President Clinton announced last year that the United States would not ever transfer anti-personnel land mines again. There are actually a number of other countries who have these unilateral moratoria in effect. I believe at one time the count was well over 20 countries.
QUESTION: That's what I was trying to get at. Other countries have done that as well?
ACTING ASSISTANT SECRETARY NEWSOM: They vary in the scope of the self-imposed moratorium, but the last count -- somebody can get you the accurate number -- the last count was well over 20.
ASSISTANT SECRETARY INDERFURTH: Tom, in addition to those legal requirements, there is also, if you will, an international norm , I believe, at work -- that the transfer for export sale of these weapons is simply running against an international norm that has been established because of the recognition of the humanitarian consequences of land mines. And even those countries that are still awaiting the Ottawa Convention to come into force after the 40 countries ratify, even those other countries that are standing outside the Ottawa Convention for their own national reasons -- many of them have looked at this question and they, quite frankly, do not want to be fingered as being responsible for the international trade in land mines.
So I think a norm is there that is also, if you will, a fourth restraint in the international community for seeing these land mines sold, transferred or moved to countries in conflict.
DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY SCHAER: Realistically, though, we believe that the trade does continue, which is one of the most important reasons that we, the United States, are going to push ahead and negotiate this global treaty in the conference on disarmament in Geneva that would clamp off all trade in anti-personnel land mines. Other questions?
QUESTION: How confident are you -- you give the year 2010 -- how confident are you that you will be able to eliminate the problem by that time; and why 2010 versus an earlier date or a later date?
ASSISTANT SECRETARY INDERFURTH: I think our confidence has risen as a result of the experience in that last several years in terms of de-mining around the world.
We chose 2010 because, again, the view that this was a task that would take centuries or generations or however one would describe it -- we did not believe that it fit the reality of the advances that had been made in terms of de-mining, the possibilities that exist in terms of de-mining technology and, indeed, most importantly, the commitment of the international community to address this problem.
There is a very strong consensus that has developed in the last several years that this problem must be addressed, all of which combines, in our way of thinking, or brings about the conclusion that working together -- and we had a Washington Conference here on anti-personnel land mines in May where we brought the 20 key countries involved in making donations to removing land mines as well as the key international organizations and non-governmental organizations. This community, we believe, is up to the task of removing land mines that threaten civilians; and we believe that the year 2010 is a reasonable time frame for that. That gives us another decade to accomplish that task. Absent some very unexpected turn in terms of conflicts around the world or a breakdown of the consensus that exists to deal with land mines, we think that that is something that can be accomplished.
ACTING ASSISTANT SECRETARY NEWSOM: I think also it flows from the experience that we've had in our own national program -- hands-on experience. Let me just give you one relevant example, and that's in Bosnia.
We've been very active in Bosnia for more than three years in a de-mining program. When we started there, there were estimates of the number of land mines in Bosnia anywhere from -- you heard all kinds of estimates -- but 2 million, 3 million, 5 million, even 6 million mines in Bosnia.
Now we're coming into our fourth year of working in Bosnia in a very substantial way, including the financing of a national survey of Bosnia for land mines. We find that the number of land mines in Bosnia is much closer to 1 million than it is to 6 million. It's probably somewhere between 750,000 and 1.2 million -- something like that.
We have had, we believe, important success in Bosnia in establishing a very effective indigenous de-mining capability. We have trained a very large number of de-miners in Bosnia. The number is around 800 to 1,000 de-miners that have passed through DOD training. There are dog teams being used there extensively. We are seeing real progress being made while expanding from that experience and looking at what we've been able to do in Cambodia, in Afghanistan, in Central America, several places in Africa.
The people who actually do this -- not suits like us -- but people who actually go out in the field -- Colonel Cunningham and others -- they've led us to believe that this is feasible; this is not an impossible challenge -- that we can get this done in a reasonable period of time.
ASSISTANT SECRETARY INDERFURTH: Let me call your attention to page 114, there's a table on major donors. It has those countries that were invited as major donors to the Washington conference. You'll see that we have broken out there the activities these major donors have undertaken -- de-mining, R&D work on new technology, victims' assistance. You'll see the number of countries that are engaged in all those activities. We also have annexes to the report which include donors as well as NGOs and international organizations. If you just take a look at that, you will see the range of both public and private that are devoted to doing something about this, all of which combined gives us the feeling that we've got a lot of resources out there to work with and makes the goal of 2010 an objective that we can reach.
QUESTION: On the point you just made about the device, that's estimate for Bosnia? First, you have the wild estimate component of four years ago, and then you had a lot of clearing going on since then. How much -- do you have any idea of how many mines have been cleared over the past four years in Bosnia, so that we know how far off the original estimates were.
DEPUTY SECRETARY SCHAER: The number of mines cleared really doesn't have anything to do with the estimates. The number of the estimate now, or the much lower estimate, is based on surveys that have been done of identified mine fields -- suspected mine fields. The number of actual mines lifted -- Colonel Cunningham can get that for you; and the number in absolute terms is not that large.
ACTING ASSISTANT SECRETARY NEWSOM: Colonel Cunningham will show you page 77 -- the last paragraph on the report on Bosnia, which gives you some figures there, George, on the number of land mines that have been moved, mine fields identified and how much more work needs to be done.
QUESTION: Thank you.
ASSISTANT SECRETARY INDERFURTH: Thank you.
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